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Episode 306 – Church Union (Patreon)

Published:
2024-08-14 13:48:27
Imported:
2026-06
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  • 306_Church_Union.mp3
  • 306_Church_Union.mp3

Missing 1 full-res photo, 2 files.

Content

Left Pic: Michael VIII Palaiologos from 'Rulers of the Byzantine Empire' by Kibea.

The Pope responds with despair to the news of Constantinople's fall. He calls for a Crusade to restore the Latin position. The man who answers is the brother of the King of France, Charles of Anjou. Michael Palaiologos is willing to do whatever it takes to stop them. This means he must agree to church union.

Period: 1261-82

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Comments

Paul Astalas

What vile creatures are these catholics. Maybe the best course would have been to make no compromises and face them head on. Crusades have a habit of failing and a lot of things go wrong as the time goes on. Plus now the romans knew the enemy they were facing and the consequences of losing. If they defeated the umayyads they could defeat the french. The romans would also have been more united and hardened.

Guillem N

The war of the Sicilian Vespers itself is a really interesting story too. To recover Sicily for the Anjou, the pope organised a new crusade, this time against Aragon, a CATHOLIC kingdom which was joined by the king of France, who died trying to besiege Girona. After this pope-organized crusading was pretty much discredited forever. Eventually, the crusade was repelled, Aragon couldn't conquer the Italian mainland but neither could Anjou Naples with Sicily. Aragon renounced its claims to Sicily in exchange for Sardinia and Corsica, which were Genoese owned (wouldn't be surprised if this was an indirect way by the pope to mess with Byzantium). Eventually however Aragon was granted Sicily anyway, and would spend the next century fighting Genoa for those 2 islands, helping its decline (so the 14th century in the Mediterranean we have a Byzantium+Genoa vs Aragon+Venice dynamic). Naples remained under Anjou control. This split of the kingdom of Sicily would plant the seeds for the Italian wars of the 1500s. Meanwhile the papacy became so dependant on the French that they eventually relocated to Avignon in France up until the 1400s (and that helping a lot with the Western cism). The pressure on Byzantium of course would help immensely on the Ottomans' rise, that woulf eventually destroy Venice's trade empire. And Sicily and Sardinia would be the Springboard for Spain to take over half of Italy, which would be dominated by Spain up to the 1800s. Long term this 20 years of obsession with recovering Constantinople was an absolute disaster for the papacy and Italy in general.

H1892

I felt this when I read Kaldellis’ book and it’s been brought out again here - I feel a lot of sympathy for Michael. Maybe I’m giving him too much credit but beating your own people into submission because you know the alternative is worse for them must have been horrible. Perhaps the fact he wasn’t overthrown points to a lot of Romans at the time quietly admitting it?

Alan Boughey

Very interesting and entertaining episode! I loved the nuanced discussed of Michael and the various interests of the Popes (who never seem to last very long), Venetians, etc, etc. I will add Michael to my long list of Byzantine Emperors who faced enormous difficulties and yet patiently and skilfully worked to achieve an amazing degree of success. I admire them.

Dominic Guye

I'm sorry; I don't feel like preserving the empire is worth this level of tyranny.

PaulyWalnuts

The claim that no Bishop had primacy over the others in your podcast is wrong. You will find Church fathers all the way to the first century invoke Rome as final authority over matters that can’t be settled locally. Even in the Church councils, Peter speaks through Rome. The Eastern position on this changed post 1204, understandably so, but it’s not the original position nonetheless.

Robin Pierson
>>157775972

There was deference to the Papacy out of respect. But they never had the 'final say' on decisions.

PaulyWalnuts

COUNCIL OF CONSTANTINOPLE I The bishop of Constantinople however shall have the prerogative of honor after the bishop of Rome, because Constantinople is new Rome [Canon 3 (A.D. 381)].

Wibba

This is a very hot topic between Catholics and Orthodox, and it’s also very complex. I would like to offer a correction to the podcast, but I’d also like to acknowledge my bias as a Catholic. The Pentarchy was not an ancient church organization, nor was it recognized until Chalcedon at the earliest. In fact, the Miaphysite Churches of Egypt and Ethiopia reject, to this day, the idea of Jerusalem and Constantinople as Patriarchates, accepting only the Petrine seats (founded by Peter) of Rome, Antioch, and Alexandria. The idea of Papal primacy goes back to Pope Clement in the first century, commanding a group of Christians in far away Corinth to submit to their bishop, and to him. We’ve also seen a number of opinions supporting Papal Primacy throughout this entire podcast. That being said, we’ve also seen a great number of bishops and patriarchs reject papal orders throughout this period. I don’t think it’s so cut and dry-there’s plenty of evidence for each side. I, as a Catholic, simply find the evidence in favor of the Pope more convincing. I think both Catholics and Orthodox can frown upon the actions of the Popes early on in this episode. Saint John Paul II himself apologized for 1204, after all.

Robin Pierson
>>184574728

Hey, you can see that another listener makes similar points to you below. But there is a big difference between Papal primacy and Papal supremacy. The 13/14thth century Popes were not asking for primacy they were asking for obedience. This made no sense to the Byzantines at all since it was Emperors who had called the earliest Ecumenical Councils and their Bishops who'd made the arguments about doctrine. The Pope never had the final say on church matters.