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The Vampire Diaries S4E7 - "My Brother's Keeper" - UNCUT (Patreon)

Published:
2022-10-22 01:23:35
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2026-06
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Sorry for how late in the evening this is out guys!! Didn't realise how pooped I'd be after resetting my sleep schedule so been hard to focus all day, will get more consistent with times and days soon I promise!!!

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Abhi Subedi
>>94296457

You literally are one of those people tbh. So much hypocrisy here.

Patpet

Caroline in this episode is back to be the season one inappropriate, gossiper, super judgemental 1000 times over. I get she doesn’t like Damon because when he didn’t know her and he had his humanity on a dimmer switch he used her as vampires do to feed to get in places he couldn’t, he treat her as a minion. But since then he saved her life a couple of times, has became friends with his mom, Damon is not a bad person, and the fact that he does what is needed to do for the sake of everybody and he gets all the blame, the hatred for it, doesn’t make anybody else benefitting from his taking action, better. When Caroline says to Stefan, you are you and Damon is yack, not only gave him false hope but fuel his already very self righteousness that Stefan has naturally, thinking he is better than his brother, and Mr Ripper is not, Mr threatening Elena on Whikery Bridge because his revenge is more important than Elena’s well been, is not, or stripping Jeremy of his humanity because so I can fix Elena’s no matter what Elena might thing or want or what the consequences for the siblings can be, is by any means not better than his brother. Stefan is painfully not self aware of his own major flaws. The problem with Stefan personality is now in the open, he doesn’t want Elena to change, he needs Elena to be the good doppelganger at all cost, because he is with Elena on the premises that Elena is good, is immature, can be manipulated and that keeps him in touch with his humanity until she is the human, little girl that does what is right according to everybody standards not matter if is right for her or not and that she doesn’t tempt him into bad behaviour. So he is with Elena for his convenience not because he loves Elena selflessly no matter what, as Damon does. Stefan’s love is conditional. And Elena realised that. Her conversation she had with her subconcious taking the form of Katherine telling her that now that she is a flawed vampire Stefan will hate her like he did when he learn that Katherine was a vampire, Elena knows. This entire episode also completely debunk Stefan being respectful of Elena’s choices, not when the choices she made are not coming his way, he didn’t care about the fact that by triggering further Jeremy’s hunter marks he might want to killed her and force the two of them to live apart, specially because Damon warned him not to do it precisely because of that, so he id it with the knowledge of that, but "fixing " Elena is his priority not what Elena fells, want or don't want. He lost her, but he has understand why he lost her, and he is not gracious about it, not with her not with his brothers. Surely splitting up with someone you love hurts badly, but you can act in two ways, have some pride and act maturelly and graciously, he knew she had feeling for Damon for long time an he knew he loved her, so things where in the open and for Damon knowing that Elena has feelings for him and seen her with Stefan it must have been equally painful, but Damon has always been gracious about it, because he love his brother too. Or you could go the other way, being petty, being ungracious and take it on Damon and Elena for being dampt, becuase the idea that things change and that you could be not what she wants because the way you are is not what she wants, it takes self awareness Stefan doesn't have. How it is possible that Elena choses Damon instead of him.... "you are you and Damon is yack" Stefan's haughty self believe reiforced by Caroline. And Stefan is not taking the gracious road.... Now, the sire bond. Damon never told her to love him, never told her to have sex with him. by telling him she wanted to dance with him, she practically asked him to embrace her, which he complied, they dance and kissed not for the first time, she ripped his shirt while he opened his arm and let her take charge. That was long coming, this is the continuation of the motel moment, where they are now finally free to make love, this is not the sire bond, this them finally be free to express the love, the passion the attraction, they felt for each other for quite some times. A love that was there before she become a vampire, that is why it amplified, because it was there, but because circumstances, bad timing, Elena being loyal to Stefan and lots of other things among also the fear of being badly judged, she felt never free to express before. But that scene is love, and is so beautifully shoot. Take any frame and all you see is their devotion, passion, Damon abandonment to love, the last frame with the kiss, is so visually beautiful it reminds me of so many work of art kisses, but in reverse, where is Damon being in the surrounding position, if anything there, Damon is sired to Elena, he truly loves her at the point of allowing himself to be vulnerable and exposed, with the love of his life that has finally chose him. Poor Damon, the fact that Elena might be sired to him, surely is going to impact him too.

Archna

Sire bond is possible because we have seen in the past how Damon had asked Elena to drink directly from the vein otherwise, she would be miserable. Killing Connor would be another example but other than that there haven't been any moment where Damon has stressed on something for Elena to agree with. I wouldn't count the red dress being Elena's choice an example of the sire bond because Damon was asking her instead of ordering her to agree with him. She chose the red dress because the moment Damon walked in the room, notice how she was fixing herself and blushing. She didn't care about Caroline's choice any longer and went with her own choice. I understand Stefan's heartbreak. It can't be easy for him to digest the fact that despite him being the so-called good brother and the better choice, Elena broke up with him and is open to confessing to the fact that she has feelings for Damon. Funnily Caroline and Stefan were the people in S3 who had been asking Elena to confess the same, but she couldn't because she feared being judged. Also, now we're seeing Stefan who isn't respecting Elena's choice and why is that? Because she no longer is the girl, he met in Season 1? Stefan and Caroline have a problem this season. See, Elena isn’t being who they want her to be. She’s doing things they don’t want her to do. She wants someone they don’t want her to want. Therefore, there must be something wrong with her. Therefore, they should fix her. It’s no secret that I hate Stefan’s whole idea that he has to “cure” Elena to fix her and set her back to who she was as a human. I want to talk about Stefan and Caroline’s motivations for wanting to cure Elena and justifying their actions by concluding that she must be sired to Damon. Stefan and Caroline have some overlapping motivations (they both don’t like the idea of Elena being with Damon), their underlying issues are actually quite different. Stefan’s stem from his own issues with vampirism and over-projecting these on Elena. Caroline’s (should) stem from her abuse and Damon’s hands and thinking that he’s doing the same thing to Elena. Stefan obviously has some severe issues with his vampirism and all of his blood problems. He compartmentalizes his personality into “good” Stefan who drinks animal blood and tries to be moral and good and the “Ripper” Stefan who is out of control and is so hungry for human blood that he can’t stop feeding until he rips people’s heads off. So, when Elena becomes a vampire, he projects all of these issues onto her. He wants her to drink animal blood and not kill anyone and do vampirism the “right” way, so she doesn’t make the same mistakes he did. And while she tries to live up to his vampire standards, Elena cannot stomach animal blood. So, she begins drinking from humans. And guess what? Elena can feed from people without killing them. Without ripping their heads off or feeling so guilty that she wants to “turn her emotions off”. But when Stefan gets the idea that he can “cure” Elena right back into humanity? He justifies lying to her, endangering Jeremy and then pushing him further into his hunter identity and ending their already fractured relationship over the idea that he can “fix” her. Caroline’s justifications are a little more understandable. Damon treated Caroline abusively in early season 1 and it makes sense that Caroline be worried that Damon is taking advantage of or abusing Elena. I understand her not liking Damon and she should totally be open about it with Elena without but without attacking her. And the way the show goes about it without clearly addressing Caroline’s abuse makes it seem like she’s only hating Damon because she thinks Stefan and Elena are epic. Instead of having a legitimate issue, the show makes it seem like she’s a shipper mouthpiece instead of her own character. So, Caroline and Stefan have clear reasons why they want to “cure” Elena. Clearly, she’s not being who they want her to be, and they want to fix that and have her be who she was as a human. It is beyond gross and agency violating. Because Stefan just jumps into the idea of curing Elena without even asking her if that’s what she wants. His idea that Elena isn’t suited for vampirism and that she would want to be human again without even asking her is him jumping to conclusions and over-applying his issues to Elena. He’s all about having her be human again if it means that she’s the human girl he loved before, even if the price is Elena becoming a human blood bag (and possible breeder of doppelganger offspring) for Klaus again. Even if Elena doesn’t want it for any number of reasons (being more secure in her vampirism, Jeremy, not wanting to be Klaus’ blood bag). Even if the price is exorbitantly high and the cure possibly doesn’t exist, Stefan will do anything to get it if it means having the “Elena” he wants back. And that’s really gross. Objectively, what has Elena been doing as a vampire that makes her worse suited at it or doing worse things than any other vampire on the show? The answer is nothing. Elena is adapting to vampirism surprisingly well for someone who’s had feeding issues and has never wanted to be a vampire. She’s found a way to feed off of people without killing them, she’s killed someone in defence of a loved one and hasn’t “turned it off” because of the guilt and despite being tormented by hallucinations, she hasn’t killed herself. Caroline has killed slightly more people than Elena , one that was out of new vampire hunger and the others out of defence of a loved one (the deputies in 2x05. Stefan’s killed countless people over the decades. What makes Elena need to be “cured” of her vampirism when so many other vampires may be more poorly suited? The answer, at least for Caroline and Stefan right now, is Damon. Damon is helping Elena become more secure in her vampirism. Damon tried helping Elena learn how to feed off of humans. Damon helped Elena down from her suicide attempt in 4x06. Elena is finally acting on her feelings and desire for Damon. And this is where the final straw breaks for Caroline and Stefan. It’s only after Elena breaks up with Stefan and pursues her feelings for Damon that Caroline and Stefan try to justify Elena’s actions with the “sire bond”. When Elena begins acting in ways that they don’t like, they can blame it on Elena being sired to Damon. If Elena’s sired to Damon, there really is something wrong with her and thus, she needs to be cured. Elena being “sired” gives Stefan and Caroline justification for wanting to “fix” Elena because they’re doing it for her own good. No matter what Elena has to say in the matter. And that angers me to no end, because it’s ignoring what Elena wants and what Elena has to say all to justify Caroline and Stefan’s issues with what Elena does and who Elena wants. I just hope both of them get this into their head that "Elena doesn't need fixing".

Archna

Beginning with their end of day conversation over some bourbon and ending with them FINALLY relishing in their love and breaking down all barriers, I have watched this moment at least a thousand times. It’s just flawlessly executed. Right down to the wardrobe and the song choice. Although for them, there was no music. They danced in virtual silence, to nothing but the crackling of flames and the sound of their own heartbeats and breathing. The sheer romance of it all just undoes me. Every time. Because after all the build up, the tension, the angst, the back and forth, the uncertainty, they came together in their typical wildly intimate, brazenly beautiful fashion. They reminisced with sweet, thoughtful smiles and soft declarations about their first dance at the Miss Mystic pageant just one year before. They talked over glasses of bourbon, Elena getting her frustrations off her chest about her friends’ lack of acceptance of her choices and Damon providing support and encouragement and understanding, as always. Then Elena, with all the adorable shyness of a lovestruck schoolgirl, told Damon she wanted to dance. And he set their glasses aside, stood up, offered her his hand, and led her in front of their fireplace. No words were spoken after that. They communicated with their eyes and their touch and their lips. They swayed in silence to a beat only they could feel, taking it slow and recognizing the poignancy of the moment, the importance of the threshold they were about to cross. Of any way their first time could’ve been carried out, I am just in awe that it was done like this. With care. With intention. With a perfect combination of love, lust and romance, all wrapped into one dance. A dance that was meant to parallel their first at the pageant. The intricacy of it all cannot be overstated. And sire bond or not, it happened at the right time. They were ready. They’d waited long enough. This was without a doubt the continuation from the steamy motel night of theirs. At that time, they had to stop from going any further because Elena despite wanting to take things further was held back. Tonight, there was no reason to hold herself back and Damon let her take charge. She is free and happy because she is with the man who doesn't judge her. He's happy to see her being herself without feeling ashamed.

Maribel Humble
>>94078951

Archna, I also get goosebumps with the scene between Damon and Elena. It never gets old for me. Many of us can practically feel the love between them. I love what you said about Damon and Elena making love scene was done with a precise combination of love, lust, and romance. I. have never seen anything like it before or after.

Maribel Humble

Thank you, Harry, for everything you said about Elena on this episode. It baffles me that some of the fandoms expect Elena to remain the same girl she was in season one because even without the supernatural element, it would be unnatural for Elena to stay the same girl after everything she has been through.

Indre Duobaite
>>94078951

I actually always tear up at Damon and Elena scenes in this episode out of pure happiness. Especially the one where she says ‘You’ to Damon and the end scene of course!

Patpet
>>94083700

Preciselly. What elevate this hsow above many other show is that the boundry of the supernatural are used to explore very human, issues, behaviour, reactions, and stay very gronded, on character development, on reality and sound psycology. Elena was already a very mature girls when we first got to know her. First on all for her upbringing. They life in a small town in the south of the USA, a whealty town, where even the poor kids aren't by any stadard "really poor" Matt is living in an owned house and I'm sure that the job at the grill is not the only thing that pay for all the bills. They all and go to the same school share the same environmen, proud of their history and tradditions, So it is same to say that they all have an homogenious level of education, in an environment where the upbringing of children is closelly monitored by everybody, where you are required to be polite, good, thoughtful etc. And Elena and Jeremy, because we forget how Elena and Jeremy are so similar regarding politness, emphaty, sensitivity are from a prominemt family, with an esteemed doctor as a father. In this environment kids even if they have tehier oun rebel fase, are very mature for their age On top of that Elena first season lost her parents, and witness her parents die, she was there and survived. This kind of trauma would all of the sudden mature anybody. She is so though. But she was still a kid, going after the new mistery guy, because the town doesn't offer her much romance choice. From that little traumatized girl, desperate to feel good again, to fit in the group again a lot has changed. An it is so much cudos to the writers to make sure that our group of friends personality, individually as characters, in their passing of time and in the things they go throw are consistent with reality, with what a real person would react an act according to what is happening to him or her. And that is the point of Elena becoming a vampire and the sire bond, to insure the viewer ponder about wants, needs, maturity, feeling, and engage with what the characters are going throw to an emtional level because we all somehow experience those emotions. Elena's haters fell in two chategory, kids that haven't experience life yet, and have jelousy issues, she is so loved and considered so precious by everybody and disturbed unsympathetic people that have lack of emphaty, because I can't imagine not to feel sorry for someone that lost so many family members, Alaric included.

Maribel Humble
>>94078951

Under Duobaite, in the end scene with Damon and Elena, it feels like I get an arrow through my heart💘. It makes me so happy. Wow ‼️‼️‼️

Jasper

I find it weird that people hate Klaus so much and are against this romance with Caroline, yet they root for Damon and his romance with Elena. Damon rapes women (compelling them to want it or compelling them to love you and then having sex with them is still rape) and kills innocent people and not just before the show’s timeline or off screen either, so he is not any better than Klaus. Honestly Stefan has also done so many heinous things that I would not say he is any better. Klaus is only the villain because he is often working against the main characters , not because he is somehow worse. Almost everyone is a monster in this show, you can of course pick who you root for, but I think it is a bit questionable to think they are morally better than the others. On a sidenote, at this point of the show, without Salvatore brother’s plot armor, Klaus or some other Original would have murdered them a long time ago, at the latest when Klaus returned into his body and at the time had plenty of reasons to kill them and none not do so.

Patpet
>>94227593

Uh I can see a character hater. Damon never raped anyone. Anna explained why vampires need minions to do their dirty work she turned the bar tender and kissed him to motivating him further to do what she wants. I don't see anybody hating on Anna. Damon when he arrived to town had his humanity switch on dimmer switch, you know why, Harry doesn't so I can't say, but you know. And he were focus on getting what he though the love of his life back by any means. Caroline was a mean to get into the Lockwood house to get the crystal. He most definitely didn't tape her, SHE invited him in his house she took him in her bedroom, she was enjoying sex with him very much until he feed on her. He only compelled her not to be afraid of him and not to spill the conversations they were having, why? Because Damon doesn't lie, he could tell her everything. Same thing with Handy she chased him she really liked him and again he was telling her everything. The difference between Damon or Stefan and Klaus at this point is motivation, what motivates the brothers? Damon does everything for love, to protect his loved ones by any means because they live in a dangerous world and if it wasn't for Damon everybody would be already dead. Klaus motivation is controll, power, revenge, is not quite as noble as Damon's motivation, and to be honest knowing everything Damon is the most tragic figure in the show the one everybody with a bit of decent feelings or an hint of empathy should feel compassion for and you know what I am talking about. Caroline and Klaus have their cute moments but they are motivated by very different things that are on polar opposite of the scale, so far and at this point unless Klaus change radically, it is perfectly justifiable not to ship them together I repeat at this point.

Jasper
>>94227593

I am not a “character hater”, I do not hate Damon as a character, I simply point out what he has done. The Caroline situation is iffy, but even if he did not rape her he certainly compelled Andie to have feelings for him and to be his girlfriend and had sex with her and that alone counts as a rape. Damon does kill innocent people without any noble motive in this show. I would also say that even if you think “ends justify the means” if you do horrible things to protect your loved ones you are still a monster. Your take on Klaus’ motives is also far too simplistic and given the abuse both his parents have done to him and him spending 52 years being tortured by the dead hunters added by the fact that being a vampire amplifies your feelings and insecurities it is no wonder he has trust issues and is a bit unhinged. Klaus’ biggest fear is that his family will leave him and he is locked in a toxic cycle with them.

Jasper
>>94227593

If you want a specific example of Damon raping Andie, one can be found when he compels her to not be afraid and to feel ok in the bath after confessing that he kills people and then proceeds to have sex with her.

Patpet
>>94227593

NO he never raped anybody, the writers where clear about it, so please do not invent things because of your bias. Before it was Caroline now that I debunk the Caroline situation is no more that one is Andy, really? She had sex with him very willingly "you can booty call me anytime"...saying that in his tab both naked after sex having a bath, he only reinforced what she already felt, never forced to her to stay or to have sex with him, never, for the same reason because he doesn't lie and he wants to be able to tell everything to the people he has intimate relations with. And obviously Stefan killing her for absolute nothing is not noticeable , because in TVD the bad guy is Damon he i the monster...sure, not Stefan, not Klaus, not Elijah.not Katherine compelling Stefan and lying to Damon to keep having sex with both brothers...but Damon, of course, knowing everything you know, Damon is the monster...sorry if I feel a sound laugh coming, Damon that compared to the brutality of the others is the "kitty cat" of the show...wow!!! Sorry that is character hate, there is no hiding behind the bush, anybody can see it. And now everybody will know for sure. Really, you shipping Klaus and Caroline because Caroline deserve a brutal killer and if motivation doesn't give characters some justification, Klaus than is the biggest monster of them all, take monsters to another level as Elijah do, cold brutality champions. Sorry but motivation is everything they are vampires not priests. Also it is strange to you that people here don't ship Caroline with Klaus and have a rant about Damon, of all characters, being a monster...talking about logical consistency.....well I think I rest my case on this. By the way the only sexual offence in the show was done by Vicky an 18 years old girl sleeping with minors Jeremy 15 and Tyler 17. But that of course you haven't notice too busy with bias character hatred blindness.

Jasper
>>94227593

It seems to me that you are overly emotionally involved in this to read what I actually said. Firstly I never said I “shipped” Klaus and Caroline, but merely pointed out the inconsistencies with the thinking in this regard. Secondly I clearly said that almost everyone in this show is a monster, so no particular biased hate was directed towards Damon. Thirdly the writers write scenes that clearly imply rape, so it is irrelevant if they come out afterwards to say it was not. If you did not want it to be you should have written and portrayed it differently. If someone you were interested in suddenly says he kills people that might change how you view them, no? And let’s say she felt something for him and was “reinforced” via mind control to feel more, I would still classify that as rape, if you then take advantage of that. You also did not actually refute the Caroline situation in anyway whatsoever. Finally I have not made a “rant” about Damon or anyone else. I have merely stated things as I see them. I definitely do not hate Damon in this show, I find him entertaining most of the time, however that does not change the fact that objectively speaking he is a monster. It is kind of meaningless to argue who is the “worst” I would rather say that Klaus, Damon, Stefan and many other people are in the same category of monsters.

Patpet
>>94227593

@Jasper Again your is a character hate because you insist pointing out that Damon is a Monster single him out, and insisting. To be a monster you have to have malevolent intent, you have to be somone for example that rip people head because never wanted to learn controll, and write his victims name on a wall to relive the trill, or someone that dagger his siblins as soon as they don't agree with him, or kill and entire group of werewolf to serve his need to turn them against their will in sired hybrid, or someone that turn people agaist their will, manipulate her way out of things not caring at all of who gets killed, etc. Damon isn't that wicked, he act, or better react only when he or people he loves are threaten, or someone really hurted him, or worse. I don't understand the double standards here, this passive aggressive way of saying "Uh I am not saying that everybody is good but Damon is the worse, Damon is a monster..Damon...Damon... Damon" is a way to pretend to be fair to validate and cover your bias, when is so obvious what are you doing. Sorry mate passive aggressive people, character haters, here have no free pass. We see things as they are, and we are all adult here that can see through this kind of pseudo tricks, and bias and character hate are extremelly uninteresting, very childish and toxic, the conversation here is anything but that.

Maribel Humble
>>94227593

I had to gather my courage to write this comment, but enough is enough to use the rape situation as a weapon. Don't use rape so loosely because this is a serious matter to many people. Rape is not only reserved for women, men go to that experience too. Do you know what it feels like to go through that experience? Don't you know that it never goes away? One must learn to cope with it, but it takes time. Rape doesn't end once the act is committed. Most of the time, the survivor are blamed by society to the point that the survivor blames themselves, which is why many keep it secret, but the shame and pain take a long time to dissipate, but it remains with you forever. Imagine being seven years old and someone doing this to you, but you don't understand what is happening, but you know that what they are going is wrong, and yet you feel like it is your fault. Envision yourself being raped when you are 15 years old by someone you trusted, and once he is done, he tells you he will kill you. The rape towards me was not enough for him; he also damaged my reputation with my family while mocking me every time he saw me. The person who smoothed the pain away was my husband, with his kindness and understanding while making me feel beautiful. That meekly young lady I used to be was gone when my son was born. For him, I would become a monster to defend him if it came down to that. Having a child makes you view the world with a new perspective, and the concept of being a good person versus an evil person is the stuff of fairy tales, as society has been hammered into our minds for a long time. Like my friend Newmoon says, not to dismiss the darkness we all have but treat it like a friend or risk being consumed by it if we deny it. I say that the darkness sometimes is our only friend to defend ourselves against evil. The idea of merely being good is all we need to go up against evil is the thing of fools because how can you fight what you don't understand? We don't stand a chance. I am not talking about embracing the darkness completely, but we must comprehend it to survive.

Patpet
>>94227593

@MaribelHumble we all love you sweety, truly. You are a fantastic human being, I so admire you kindness, your resiliance, your emphaty, your courage. 💗

Maribel Humble

Shame, disgust, repulsion, and anger are some of the body language survivors of rape often portray. The only emotion written on Caroline and Andy's faces was fear.

Maribel Humble

I have seen True Blood, and the fans are nowhere near as spiteful as the fans of TVD. True Blood was unapologetic and violent, and jet, the fans enjoyed talking about the show. Now, why is that?

Patpet
>>94296457

There is nothing more toxic than ignorance combined with arrogance. Unfortunately we live in an era where certain people, because of internet is now an open conversation for anybody to open their mouth and talk, think they are entitle to talk with their ass, and anonymity protect them from ever being accountable for their nastiness. The cheek to talk about a subject like that with such an arrogant superficiality pretending to be an expert on such a delicate matter just because they can talk or write is startling, to say the list. The public exhibition of ignorance and lack of compassion in my days would have been mortifying and deeply shameful now is a thing of pride for superficial silly kids and it's an attention craving for disturbed people. Damon character is so incredibly well written that psychologically manifest the projection of what people feel about themself and what they have inside. Damon is actually a great tool to judge people character, personality, level of education and maturity, or level of compassion, emphaty or superficiality and inconsideration.

j-l
>>94227593

i find it a bit strange that youre talking ab sexual assault as if klaus didnt sexually assault caroline in the first ep of s4. when klaus was in tylers body he pretended to be him and almost raped caroline in the woods. caroline consented to make out with TYLER, have sex with TYLER, not klaus. that is sexual assault and i have never seen anyone talk about that, because most ppl in this fandom are biased. caroline even called klaus disgusting, she clearly didnt wanna do anything with him. they never actually had sex, but its still sexual assault, she didnt consent to any of that. klaus went ''im an innocent victim'' as if he didnt take complete advantage of her, he knew shed never want to if she knew it was him. the hypocrisy in this fandom drives me nuts.

Jasper
>>94227593

I will reply one last time since people here do not seem to actually read what I say and derail the conversation completely often making up straw man arguments. People focused solely on arguing about the definition of rape when the point was that Damon, Stefan etc. are not any better than Klaus. Now note I did not say they were worse, so I do not really understand what you are on about, to be honest. The point was that it is inconsistent to hate the Klaus Caroline relationship because Klaus is a monster and not at all see Stefan, Damon having relationships with similarly fairly innocent people as also like that. Now if you hate none of them or all of them or just one of them that is up to you, but my point still stands.