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Kat & Nat - Hotspring (Patreon)

Published:
2024-11-16 17:00:14
Imported:
2026-06
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Content

Kat and Nat relaxing in a snowy hotspring together, suggested by Bowman502!

Files

Previews only

Comments

Spillthefire6

The Two most well-endowed girls enjoying a well earned bathe. It's a view worth braving the snow and wind for.

RemyHindle

So relaxing and beautiful! :)

AlaricLives87

What I like about this is that Nat feels comfortable enough around Kat that he won't wear his bindings. Kat would be the last person to judge him anyway

Wilford B. Wolf

I do like Natani is comfortable enough with Kat to not be self-conscious about going topless.

Isaiah James

That's adorable, just two girls enjoying a hot spring in the snow..., I want to do that one day, though I worry it wouldn't be as relaxing given your in hot water in a cold environment, but I could be wrong...

TeraKat

That’s amazing!!!!! I knew just from the title that it would be great!

Jonathan

Neat!

Rook Prime

There's a funny combination here of Nat being good going without the bindings, but apparently wearing a blindfold? I wouldn't think Kat would be all that concerned about what Nat sees after how much of a look those two have had at each other already.

aphelius

I'm the bird can confirm water was aight

VGR

(They float. That is all.)

WOLFRAM

The beans

WOLFRAM
>>155508617

Kat seems like the person to judge Natani for not decorating his bindings

KiTA
>>155509389

Is it a blindfold, or is it a warm damp washcloth?

Ezekiel S. Miles

The bird on Kat's head was an adorable touch!

Aerie

I’d love to join them x3

Joshu Kel‘Machan

That‘s a nice one, the two of them just relaxing in the hot water 👍

lordelcorion
>>155508786

Being in the water would be fine, you won't notice the cold too much. Getting out of the water is where things get.. interesting.

Spillthefire6

The owner of this Onsen spot is making bank with all the girls that decide to bathe here,even in the winter.

AstroChaos
>>155509389

It's a washcloth, not a blindfold. Pretty typical accessory for a onsen. 😏

bowman502

Thank you so much Tom!, I cannot put into words how big of a smile I had when you finished this sketch.

Daemon Blitzkrieg

Nattie just chilling & relaxing with a cutie by her side. Well deserved break time~

Ordithus

Good buds living the life and relaxin'. Love to see it! This makes me want to give the hot tub in snow a try.

silver dragonia

it's nice to see the ladies having a break and some time to relax it's well deserved i bet everyone has their own hotspring to relax in aswell

Golden Gears
>>155514099

What do you mean even in the winter? Onsen's are extremely popular during winter time.

AlaricLives87
>>155525563

A lady and a gentleman. Unless of course you’re referring to his two ladies though I’m sure Nat doesn’t wish for them such formalities aside from “the girls.”

AetherSprite224

Seeing Natani comfortable like this is always refreshing!

Thisguy

Always nice to see Nat more relaxed with his body. And I love the friendship they’ve made with Kat and how understanding and respectful she is of that.

Spillthefire6
>>155514099

I suppose so considering how many times TK girls have been drawn in winter Onsen Scenes.

BluePaw

Natani really could use the spa treatment after the link was severed between her and Zen, and using a lot of her crystal magic to break that amulet on Clovis... and falling from a great height passed out. And Kat could use a break from being a caring mother figure of the whole lot.

BluePaw
>>155536412

Mental confusion of one's self identity caused by a magical link with a brother to stay alive aside, I see females.

AlaricLives87
>>155536412

Then you should schedule an appointment with your eye doctor. Prescription glasses will help you better see a Transmasc character

Argonwolf
>>155536412

Nat was pretty heavily implied to be trans before the bond, but I'd appreciate it if Tom officially declares Nat's gender, or that there isn't one if they themselves still haven't decided in-universe.

BluePaw
>>155536412

Jokes on you, already have glasses! :D And I see all physical attributes of a female. Gender dysphoria, a mental disorder, does not equal a trans unless Natani went through the actual steps (whatever they may be in this world of magic)... until then, Natani remains female through and through. The Characters page does list Natani as "male", but I'm ruling that under the side effect of the magical link she and Zen had for a long time prior to events of Chapter 22 as back in 2011 according to the waybackmachine archive of the page Natani was previously "female" with a slightly different BIO before what it is now. "Natani was forced to live homeless with her brother after her parents and tribe were destroyed by human Templars. She eventually disguised herself as a male and, along with her brother, joined an assassins guild to make ends meet. Due to an accident during an assassination mission, Natani became magically and permanently linked to her brother, and much of her brother's male personality overpowered her own. Though she realizes her body is female, she has convinced herself she is really male." - Twokinds Character page for "Natani of the Border Forest Tribe", 2011. https://web.archive.org/web/20110319035341/http://twokinds.keenspot.com/?pageid=4 Granted Tom can and will retcon anything as the comic progresses, and if he went back and made such changes to older pages/chapters, but there will always be people who will be difficult to agree with retcons.

AlaricLives87
>>155536412

I can’t take you seriously the more you misgender the character. He/him, sweetie

Dan Vaelling
>>155536412

Natani literally said that he liked being seen and regarded as a guy even before the mind link. The whole "the mind link is responsible" thing is just what Zen thought, and due to the link filling out Nat's missing "parts" with Zen's, it became what he thought as well. And now, even with the link completely gone, he still thinks of himself as a guy.

Thisguy
>>155536412

This is why I love Kat's relationship with Natani. As soon as she learned about Nat's female body, Kat said "If he says he's a man, he's a man, there have been people like that throughout history, respect them."

silver dragonia
>>155525563

i don't want to get too much into this so i just want to keep this to a minimal: what if natani actually said felt like a tomboy and wanted to be seen a man than a woman but actually was uncertain about physical changes to become a male? also what if natani wanted to hide the feminine side so natani dressed more like what a man would? there are ways to dress a certain way to somewhat convince others said person are rich or poor or a farmer or whatever someone want to dress like so natani could easily dress like zen and be physically strong as zen but hide the feminity with masculinity to go on a journey to see what being masculine being like plus tom can change things over time so natani could easily say being a female over a male is great just as long as natani isn't being looked down upon while being feminine physically

SCD

Kathrin: There's a bird on my head. Natani: Don't care. Kathrin: Me either.

AlaricLives87
>>155525563

"Natani has the mind of a guy and that's how he sees himself. He doesn't know the first thing about women or what they're like and thus doesn't relate to them at all. He doesn't actually hate his body even though he often says he does (in fact, as a guy, he finds his own body attractive, which is very confusing for him lol) Natani just hates that it changes how people see him. He doesn't want to be treated differently because of it. How and why it happened or whether it 'counts' isn't important to me. At the end of the day, a person is the culmination of their life experiences. Whether by choice or by magic, Natani is the way he is now, and the comic is about him trying to reconcile his mind and body. That's the conflict, and it's what makes the character interesting to me." -Tom His words, not mine, and he was pretty on point about the pronouns too. If people wish to listen and learn from gay experiences, I encourage them to seek someone out who is LGBTQ. Hell, they can ask me how and why since I’m gay. But for those who just won’t listen and wish to argue this to death, I’m not interested in a debate and will only correct them every time they misgender the character. I’m not trans, but I’m all too reminded of having to live in the closet and being treated like the problem at one point or another. So it’s very personal for me, I hope you understand

AlaricLives87
>>155536412

"Natani has the mind of a guy and that's how he sees himself. He doesn't know the first thing about women or what they're like and thus doesn't relate to them at all. He doesn't actually hate his body even though he often says he does (in fact, as a guy, he finds his own body attractive, which is very confusing for him lol) Natani just hates that it changes how people see him. He doesn't want to be treated differently because of it. How and why it happened or whether it 'counts' isn't important to me. At the end of the day, a person is the culmination of their life experiences. Whether by choice or by magic, Natani is the way he is now, and the comic is about him trying to reconcile his mind and body. That's the conflict, and it's what makes the character interesting to me." -Tom In Tom's defense of not outright declaring Nat trans, his explanation here reads as someone who has adapted and evolved as an author regarding the character throughout this comic's history. He's grown along with Natani and vice versa. Getting "political" isn't important; it's merely a distraction. He lets his work speak for itself, and if it hasn't been loud enough lately (as some people in here are making clear they'd rather be deaf), he's very on point with the pronouns.

silver dragonia
>>155525563

i'm sure natani's conflict would be resolved at some point in the future so natani would either wanting to keep the male pronounce or natani would accept the feminine side so natani could want feminine pronounce i don't want to bash on gay people as everyone is valid with how they feel i don't understand the concept of other sexuality which i know is what i should try to understand but i don't consider sexuality when befriending others i consider with who they are as it is more important to see people by who they are maybe you could teach me about how and why you feel like you feel as i'd like to understand stuff before judging too hard if at all if natani changes pronounce i do hope you can accept natani for who natani is as i would do and if i remember correctly someone said tom could retcon with what natani is but i don't hope that happen exactly i do hope natani change a bit but remember the past with what natani has experienced and remember the good times and bad times while moving forward i do agree with this argument is a terrible part of this wonderful community so should we see what happens to natani to see if natani keeps the masculine pronounce or change to feminine pronounce? i do hope i can understand aswell and i think i see it is very personal for you so i hope tom has natani remember fondly the past with what experiences natani had with themself and the group and their brother maybe a bonk to my head could help you a little bit? you do seem like a great friend to have beside this problem we have as you seem like a great person

AlaricLives87
>>155525563

You need only ask me if you wish to understand as opposed to being belligerent as the others are being. Identity is very much a part of who we are and something you ought to learn and understand if it is your desire to befriend more people like that. Take it from me, we don’t CHOOSE this. Any attempts to try and change that whether due to some false hope of being hetero normal, or forced to, often leads to irreparable damage, if not the ultimate price thanks to an intolerant society. Sometimes, we might not even like that we were born this way, and that’s because of how others made us feel. That was a part of my experience. I don’t see Tom changing course now and he isn’t being held hostage by a woke Twokinds mob like some will claim. Wishing to see him retcon character development and insisting there is a chance for Nat to embrace his feminine side and be female is not a good look for whoever says that, whether they care or not, and it’s the sort of narrative trans people endure every day. Speaking of which, what really bothers me is that there are trans fans of the comic who are inspired by the character and are not only disheartened that he keeps being feminized, but they actively avoid posting on Patreon because of the amount of misgendering that goes on. It does make me wonder how some of these people would feel knowing that. Do they care or would they rather project an unwelcoming attitude? Would it even matter to them that it’s okay to find a trans character attractive, which changes nothing about their sexuality either? I’m not arguing that Natani fanservice shouldn’t exist, but it can be more trans positive. The point is that while I do not wish to speak for trans fans, that doesn’t mean I won’t defend their right to be a part of what should ultimately be a welcoming community. It is wonderful, as you say, but it could be even better.

silver dragonia
>>155525563

we will just have to see what tom does and support him however we can as i am sure he's doing what he can do give us a great comic to read and spend time with the crew even as we're not directly with them i do love the comic alot and there are alot of confusing stuff for me which most i've forgotten but enjoyable nonetheless you're right identity is a part of who we are and i am still trying to understand with who i am as i am feeling i'm being nudged alot of places out out courisity and wanting to see how i feel as i haven't truely found what like beside playing video games as i haven't seen alot of places as i'd love to visit to experience places like a comic con or something like that to experience that and myself i do hope the trans people find people who love them for who they are as i am sure they're great people too and i also those misgender intentionally get something bad i may do it unintionally as i don't know much about the world and trans community or any community as i know there are some good people but alot of community gets hate without any good reason with trans positive in the comic maybe there should a few more characters maybe not necessarily main characters but still important enough they're still regularly visited or atleast thought of by the main crew as i know there a vast kind of people in the twokind world so why aren't there also a vast amount of keidran or basitin who are the oppesite gender than what they want to be? i do think you are doing a good thing with helping trans people and if you ask me for help with it i may end up as a bambling idiot about it as i don't know much about the trans community but i could surely be the muscle if someone needs to be forcibly removed by carrying them out and being told off as i know violence doesn't solve anything but being firm and reasonable may solve things

AlaricLives87
>>155525563

Yes, but for trans fans, Natani matters so much to them and gives them a sense of belonging where a main character CAN BE TRANS, as opposed to to simply getting a minor or background character and some have even explained that a part of Natani’s journey and his attitude toward his body and his feelings mirror what they have/still go through. I’d argue that’s very much a big part of why Natani is the best character in the comic, showing so much depth and conflict that speaks to the sorts of people who have been forced to be speechless in any fandom. It’s the same reason why Alaric speaks so much to me

ArtAnimationFan
>>155536412

Okay, here's my final point regarding the pronouns: we're talking about an anthropomorphic wolf from a webcomic. I don't think there's any reason to get offended and act self-righteous to others who see Natani differently. If she/he/whatever decides to leap off the web screen and become a real being, we can come back and discuss this, but until then don't keep trying to correct people who commit the atrocious crime of calling the fictional wolf with physical female traits a female. It's not worth clogging the comments with unneeded discord.

silver dragonia
>>155525563

with the trans you may have to explain to me as i only understand being trans is: there are people who has gone through an operation to become the oppesite gender they were to the gender they want and the other side who wants to become or sees themselves as the other gender than the one they already are but haven't gone through operation to become said gender with this i hope i don't offend anyone as i know it is a sensitive topic to talk about: i don't completely understand the pronounce thing than male and female with they/them with those who are uncertain with how they feel it's with the other people who stretch the definition of pronounce i just understand he/him she/her and they/them besides than it confuses meto help so i'd love some explanation on that even it may confuse me more but atleast i get to know more about anything

AlaricLives87
>>155525563

Being transgender, to put it simply, means having a gender identity that does not align with the sex assigned at birth. Natani’s reference sheet is actually quite clear about making that distinction. It’s so much more than an operation which people may have, or may not be able to afford to, or choose not due to reasons like medical complications due to preexisting conditions et cetera.

AlaricLives87
>>155525563

When you’re born LGBTQ+ it becomes very apparent early on. A friend of mine who is trans knew since grade school and the whole argument that trans kids don’t exist is nonsense. Pronouns that align with their gender identity gives them a sense of normalcy and existence. To refer to them by their preferred pronouns is a sign of respect and acknowledgement, not a form of oppression that those who refuse to use the correct terms claim it to be. It hurts nobody to refer to a trans man or woman as he/him or she/her respectively. But it does hurt trans people, including trans fans of this comic, when misgendering occurs.

wjd1206
>>155536412

Why don't we all stop arguing and let the story progress, ultimately allowing Natani tell us the proper pronouns to use! It is and always will be the Individual's choice how they want to be viewed! And YES, SOMETIMES IT CHANGES AS THE PERSON EVOLVES!

silver dragonia
>>155525563

atleast thanks to you i am getting to know about stuff like this and i do appriciate it and i am sure you can see why i call myself a bambling idiot but i am getting smarter now i do everything goes well in the comic as i do love it and it is great to see natani's soul somehow got fixed

AlaricLives87
>>155525563

Thank you for listening and understanding, which is more than what I can say for others

silver dragonia
>>155525563

i may not understand everything but atleast i understood most of it and thank you for telling me about this i'm sure both of us would look forward with what tom would do with natani and the rest going forward as he does have a good sense with what a good narrative is i do try to understand stuff which relate to stuff i spend time with so it is fairly important for me i know what you've told me and i would try to remember it

Sworthy622
>>155536412

Well said, BluePaw! What the pronoun bullies always fail to account for, and this thread being a typical example, is that respect is mutual. They demand you conform 100% to their way of thinking, to deny even what's right in front of your eyes (like you mentioned in your posts about seeing females) to appease a certain group of people, with total disregard for the thoughts/feelings of the person whose conscience they're trying to violate. No room with them even to compromise or work out what you're comfortable/not comfortable with - they just label you "bigoted" or "phobic" (as they've done) or threaten you with further ill treatment.

AlaricLives87
>>155536412

I’m afraid not. Every time I see it, I’ll call it out. I’m not tolerating it. Disrespect won’t be given the luxury of silence.

AlaricLives87
>>155525563

I encourage you to seek out fans who are trans if you wish to get their perspectives. Discord and the subreddit are a start and it never hurts to simply ask, like I’ve mentioned

Dan Vaelling
>>155536412

You can't compromise on a person's Identity, especially not when said person has made his identity abundantly clear again and again. Besides, blue is the one with no respect towards other people and their identities. I'm not gonna be silent against any kind of bigotry or hate speech.

AlaricLives87
>>155536412

And using an argument like “this is a fictional character and not a real thing” spits in the face of LGBTQ+ fans and allies. It does matter to them, including this very gay one.

ArtAnimationFan
>>155536412

That’s you taking it too personally! For goodness sakes, this isn’t that hard to understand. This whole thing with the soul shattering, the brother connecting his soul through the link, the soul healing: all of this isn’t similar what trans people go through! I, along with other readers, don’t recognize Natani as trans because it isn’t the same thing as what actual trans people go through. It boggles my mind that even with this entire character arc, and even admitting YOURSELF that what Tom said isn’t a full indication that she is trans, you still feel the need to fight so vehemently on this hill. Seriously, this comment chain is pushing over 30 replies going back and forth over a fictional wolf. Stop taking it so personally, and just know that there are actual, sincere reason outside of “bigotry” or any form of phobia that people don’t think of Natani as a trans man. We all interpret characters and plot lines differently, and we won’t know the outcome of Natani’s development until the end. Insulting other people for their interpretations will never win them over.

AlaricLives87
>>155536412

I will treat it personally just like I will continue to correct you with the proper terms he/him. Don’t twist what I post. When the author uses he/him pronouns as well as telling a trans awakening story in everything but declaring him trans, who is in the wrong here using incorrect pronouns and misgendering the character, which I have had to point out more than once keeps trans fans from feeling more welcomed here, and that’s telling none of you have anything to say about that. I’m reminded of when I first started on Patreon, and there were those who insisted Alaric and Keith were brothers and he wasn’t gay. The f-bomb was thrown around and for someone who was looking to be more open about his sexuality here, it didn’t feel welcoming at first, and I might have very well clammed up. But there were those who showed that it wouldn’t tolerated and I had a community to enjoy this comic with and feel seen. What are you doing right now that’s any different from that?

Dan Vaelling
>>155536412

It's straight up confirmed that the masculine feeling and male identity that Nat has all comes from himself and have nothing to do with the link. And Tom literally said that he's a guy, and that's how he identifies, that's the definition of being trans, to identify as something other than your agab. Your "argument" is objectively wrong on the most fundamental level. What boggles my mind is that people are so adamant about erasing Natani and who he is.

Daemon Blitzkrieg
>>155536412

everybody in this thread needs an epic chill pill (admittedly, some more than others) & to relax, like Nattie & Kitty up there~ Like legit close the webpage and don't bring it up again. Have a better day all~~

Netari Icefyng

The argument i see here is why natani should never be featured in sketches..perhaps another non-cannon wolf would be better.

wjd1206
>>155536412

Just couldn't drop it, huh? Who's intolerant here?! Respect goes both ways regardless if you agree with the other person or not. Just sucks all the joy out of an otherwise entertaining sketch!

wjd1206
>>155621915

I agree with you wholeheartedly! As I said in the other thread: "Just couldn't drop it, huh? Who's intolerant here?! Respect goes both ways regardless if you agree with the other person or not. Just sucks all the joy out of an otherwise entertaining sketch!"

ArtAnimationFan
>>155621915

But it’s not fair to keep such a well liked character out of the sketches just because people have different viewpoints and theories. We just need to agree to disagree, that way we can all enjoy things in our own way.

BluePaw
>>155621915

I don't see why she shouldn't be. She can be a bit goofy at times in these sketches, especially with Keith or Flora involved for various antics and humor.

BluePaw
>>155525563

It's not that complicated as Alaric is attempting to make it be. Natani is female, just think she is male. It's called gender disphoria, a mental condition. Whatever the case may be of how she got that mindset, she's still female as she always has been. Trans implies one went through the process, and Natani has not (whatever that may be). As for the pronouns, not everyone is gonna follow along with that because of how backwards it sounds. See a female body but use "male" pronouns instead, and vise versa... it's confusing and unnecessary.

Netari Icefyng
>>155621915

I can't find my post i made on it before but i don't see a need to continue from where it was seeing as i came back a few hours later and the chat had exploded so....

Netari Icefyng
>>155621915

I'll be honest i've been touchy talking about Nat because of this. Nice to see my caution was warrented...

BluePaw
>>155621915

Eh, these things happen in many fandoms in varying degree and subject. This is just another one that'll pass. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

AlaricLives87
>>155536412

There was no respect to start with, so I called it out for what it was, and will keep doing so for as long as needed.

AlaricLives87
>>155525563

So this is the "respect goes both ways" thing you few are talking about? I see you, BluePaw. You don't like that this conversation produced positive dialogue between us so you brought your drivel in to try and muddy it, but it won't work. Silver and I talked through things because we recognized the sort of decency in each other to have a real conversation about it. You keep carrying on misgendering and using the wrong pronouns with no regard for how it affects others despite all the points and facts that have been made to the contrary, which you continuously ignore.

RivCA

Hey, look. A birb!

JustACollegeStudent
>>155621915

Nah, she shouldn't be excluded. She's a great character. I'm curious to see where Tom is going to go now that her connection to her brother has been severed and she's seemingly come back in touch with herself, but we'll see.

silver dragonia
>>155525563

i do agree with alaric here with we could have a reasonable conversation about it while i do try to understand things for what they are and then there are people like you bluesky who just crashes it and does a dumb attempt to whatever you're doing sure some people may be confused to what gender they're suppsoed to be but atleast we should be as supportive to them as possible as they're actual people too who is in a fog of who they are compared to us who has clear skies of who we are i can understand if a woman wants me to use male pronounce becouse the woman physically feels or wants to be a man or vice versa when physically a man wants to be a woman then there are people who uses they/them pronounce either becouse they don't know who they really are or those who don't want to be masculine or feminine so whoever you may be in reality bluepaw i do hope you get something egually bad to what you said becouse you gave some disrespect to people who wants different pronounce while physicall the other gender they want to be

Dan Vaelling
>>155621915

So you don't think people should be allowed to suggest their favorite character just because of some transphobic trolls?

Dan Vaelling
>>155621915

Natani has said numerous times that he's a guy, and have consistently been correcting people that mistook him for a woman, how about you tell people to respect that, instead of coming here and saying that blatant transphobia is something to be accepted and respected?

Netari Icefyng
>>155621915

I gotta ask why isn't Mike Trans then? Also Since Katt was actually the first one to mention it does that make Katthrine transphobic or something??? Also what about Clovis?

BluePaw
>>155621915

Funny enough Tom has Mike down as "Male \ Female?" in the character page so that is a good question Netari... And like JACS said... it's why I stopped responding to them. They're pretty much bullies at this point...

AlaricLives87
>>155517531

Also, I wanted to message you but I guess we can’t do that on here but apologies if you feel the discourse that erupted took away from your sketch suggestion. All of that doesn’t reflect on you and I really like what you suggested here

Tactical Ferrets
>>155536412

Thats the problem with people like you, you can't drop it for the sake of ending an argument. It doesn't matter who's right or wrong. Be the bigger man/women/or whatever, and end the argument. If you can't drop it and insist on continuing it, then your the issue.

Argonwolf
>>155621915

Oh yeah I forgot about the char sheets! Nat's says that he's transgender, so there we go, that's word of god. I'm at least glad that Tom officially put it to rest.

Argonwolf

Boy brain plus girl body equals boy. D-d-d-d-deal with it.

Netari Icefyng
>>155621915

No the char sheets say nothing about being transgender just that Nat refers to be refered to as a male though that may change in the future now that the link between Nat and Zen the wolf's brother has been severed keeping her brothers thoughts from Nat might change the outlook on the wolf's self.

bowman502
>>155517531

Thank you, Keith & Natani are my favorite couple in Twokinds so I intend to suggest a lot of sketches involving one of or both of them.

AlaricLives87
>>155517531

Please do! As I will keep suggesting Keith and Alaric, but I think that’s obvious ;)

Netari Icefyng
>>155508617

Kat was the one who said she'd heard of stuff like this.. Kat is the only one who should be called transphobic.

BluePaw
>>155621915

Oh right Clovis... he only has himself to blame for that one! In all seriousness that one is up in the air as we don't know if that magic lasts as long as Nora is alive or will last without her--in fairness I might need a refresher of how magic works outside of crystal usage. While Mike's was more of a trick for a brief moment that will never be let down, and I can't remember off the top of my head how that was dispelled... Those two characters alone are their own discussions since magic was involved on each, one as a prank and one as a punishment. However neither have gender dysphoria unlike Natani.

BluePaw
>>155707438

That may apply to Clovis and Mike, however, as that was due to magic involved for punishment and prank respectively from male to female, but not to Natani as she has never changed.

Argonwolf
>>155621915

Clovis is a boy's brain in a girl's body. Clovis is a transgender man. It really is quite simple. Also, it says right on the character sheet that Natani's sex is female and gender is male. Here, I can even link it: https://www.deviantart.com/twokinds/art/Natani-Reference-Sheet-792169381

Dan Vaelling
>>155707438

Literally confirmed not true, Nat's masculine feelings and male identity all comes from himself.

Dan Vaelling
>>155621915

You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you? Natani himself says that it's all him, and that Zen has no influence on his identity. Maybe you should actually read the comic before commenting on it.

Dan Vaelling
>>155621915

Now you're just saying random crap, how the hell have you come to the conclusion that Kat is transphobic? She literally said that you should be respectful towards Natani and his identity.

Argonwolf
>>155707438

Indeed, Natani experienced his gender dysphoria even as a kid, far before the mind meld. Tom has been very heavy-handed in implying that Nat identifies as a man without magic influence. He could pull the rug out from under us sometime in the future and basically retcon all of his character development, but that's a meaningless hypothetical. I just don't get why people are so desperate for Nat to be cisgendered. I don't get people who refuse to acknowledge the existence of transgender people/characters. I don't remember it being that hard for me to accept that people like that exist. Maybe it was a long and arduous journey to acceptance that my mind has since repressed? When I was a kid I was a homophobe, but once I had the tiniest bit of adult perspective, it evaporated almost immediately. I don't even have a dog in this fight. I'm not trans and have never felt any inkling of gender dysphoria. But I've also never been set on fire, yet I can understand why people who have would have some trauma from the experience.

AlaricLives87
>>155707438

I appreciate your honesty, and I'm grateful to have you as an ally. It's very much needed so thank you!

AlaricLives87
>>155525563

Silver, I have no idea what else he might be saying because it appears he's taken the coward's way out and blocked me so apologies if he's giving you any crap but I want to reiterate how much I appreciate that you took the time to read and understand what I was trying to get at here and it shows growth and the kind of strength in character that they lack. Thank you

silver dragonia
>>155525563

bascially bluepaw is saying natani is just a woman who has gender disphoria and whatever mindset natani has natani is still female from the beginning and also explains being trans reguires to have gone through an operation and how backwards pronounce are when a woman wants to be called a man and a man wants to be called a woman i do hope bluepaw gets something bad in life becouse of that and bluepaw also says it's not as complicated what what you're saying i do not get what bluepaw gets at or why bluepaw said it

AlaricLives87
>>155525563

He cannot/will not accept a character's gender identity for reasons I can only assume are internalized and(or) projected. It's a tale as old as time where LGBTQ+ people deal with his ilk, but more recently, works depicting LGBTQ+ characters and subjects have come under increasing scrutiny and outright attacks. Ironically, I have not called him or anyone transphobes during this kerfuffle, but they were quick to use that reverse victimization card anyway. All I will say is that such a diatribe can tell you who they really are, and even if they may not say such things to trans people's faces, it's what they likely think, and an attitude that is unfortunately not exclusive to a fictional character.

ArtAnimationFan
>>155707438

This freaking Patreon post is punishing towards 150 comments arguing back and forth about a freaking webcomic wolf’s orientation. Can’t we just agree to disagree already?

silver dragonia
>>155525563

well seems like he has blocked me aswell and i do wonder why people like him just block others when stuff doesn't go their way the instance they complain about it i don't like people who immediately falter to being the victim of assault when they first started the spark of assault towards other people i just hope something bad will happen to him sooner rather than later becouse of this and if i knew him personally and could easily travel to him i'd firmly tell him off with what he does and if starts to physically hit me i'd happily do the same in defence if he screams victim if i defend myself from his attack which he may do he shouldn't start conflict which he can't end himself

Netari Icefyng
>>155532636

especailly out in the open without the bandages i wonder if this is part of what Keith said when she sounded more confident maybe she'll open up more at least to Keith as the story goes on now that she has merged with her lost part...

Dan Vaelling
>>155707438

Zen's not the cause of it, that's literally been explicitly stated. Nat's always had the mind of a guy, making him trans. And saying that someone's biological sex takes precedence over their identity when it comes to gender is straight up textbook transphobia.

Dan Vaelling
>>155707438

You can't compromise or "agree to disagree" when it comes to someone's gender identity, especially not when there's an objectively correct answer that's been clearly stated multiple times. Transphobic is not and can not be tolerated here. Some people just have a complete disregard for a repeatedly confirmed fact because they can't handle a scawwy transgender character in their furry webcomic

Dan Vaelling
>>155707438

That's not entirely true, or at least you're exaggerating the effect a bit. While society did cause him to have some internalized misogyny, which has played a part in his self-hate, it mainly pushed him towards exploring his masculinity and figure out that being a boy felt way better and more correct than being a girl, regardless of social status.

Sworthy622
>>155707438

If Zen's not the cause of it, then I as a reader question what else has happened Natani's soul to make her reject her body. "Nat's always had the mind of a guy, making him trans.", "textbook transphobia" - since you're bringing trans ideology into it, I'm going to explicitly state that I can never agree to it, because it is fundamentally at odds with my understanding of creation (as directed by my religious beliefs). To demand that I speak in accordance with your ideology, is to demand that I become a liar.

AlaricLives87
>>155707438

And there it is. Sometimes, I give people too much benefit of the doubt, thinking they're just being trolls, but this almost always rears its ugly head. Being trans isn't ideology. You're invoking your religious beliefs to not only misgender a Transmasc character, but are insulting LGBTQ+ fans like me by extension. I don't appreciate that.

Dan Vaelling
>>155707438

Nothing, it's been confirmed that what happened to Nat's soul had no impact on his identity, he was trans before, and he is trans after. where the confusion comes in is that Zen *thought* that it was because of Nat's soul being shattered and the mind link formed, and that belief got carried over through the link so Nat ended up believing that as well. Once the link got severed he realized (thanks to Youngtani) that Nat's masculine feelings and male identity all came from himself all along. But good on you to admit that you're just being bigoted and hateful. Trans people exist, and if you have a problem with that, then frankly you're not welcome here. Your religion does not give you the right to deny others their rights to live, and if you genuinely believe that the way through the Pearly Gates is to spread hate and discrimination instead of love and acceptance then it's doors will forever remain closed for you.

Sworthy622
>>155707438

There you go with immediately prejudging and assigning me nasty labels, without space for further discussion or understanding. I hope you realise just how "hateful" you're being when you demand I violate my conscience, then label me offensive terms and show unwelcomeness when I respectfully disagree with you. When you demand I refer to a person by the wrong sex, and use the pronouns that you perceive to be correct, you are trying to police my behavior when the person in question is absent. He/She, Him/Her, etc are not words you would use when in conversation with said person. Instead of labeling me a 'hateful bigot' and dismissing me, understand that I approach each person in a Spirit of Goodwill. If someone in their mind is at odds with their body, I would accommodate that person's wishes within the bounds of my conscience (for example, calling them by their chosen name, since names are within the realm Man, so I don't see it as denying the reality of their God-given body).

Sworthy622
>>155707438

"if you genuinely believe that the way through the Pearly Gates is to spread hate and discrimination instead of love and acceptance then it's doors will forever remain closed for you. " The way through the "Pearly Gates" is acceptance of God's own Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, and admittance that we're all sinners in need of Him. No one can pass the "Pearly Gates" no matter how "good" they are in their own efforts. Jesus Christ was The Sinless Man, murdered on the cross by the ruler of this World - the sinning cherub known as "Satan" or the "Father of Lies" (whose spirit to this day directs the thoughts and attitudes of those who reject God's message of salvation).

AlaricLives87
>>155707438

Your self-righteousness is repugnant, and playing the victim now won't work. There has been nothing respectful about how you've gone about this, and you know it unless you are that delusional to justify such rhetoric.

Dan Vaelling
>>155707438

I can't violate my conscience by tolerating transphobia and allowing it in my community. Not respecting trans people's identities is by definition transphobia, and transphobia is by definition hateful. If you don't want to "violate your conscience" by being accepting of other people identities, and refusing to learn and change, then you are indeed unwelcome here. And for the record, what you've been saying so far has been anything but respectful. You talk so much about people's "God given bodies", and yet you completely disregard their God given minds and souls. When God creates a trans person, who are you to argue, to say that He has made a mistake?

Dan Vaelling
>>155707438

And when you fall short after you failed to follow Jesus' most simple teachings to love and accept your fellow humans, instead opting to hate and discriminate, what will you do then? How can you claim to have accepted Jesus when you go against what he taught?

noxamillion
>>155707438

Hey Sworthy622, I wanna let you know there is no religion, ideology, or philosophy that stops one from acting like a fool. It takes almost no effort to recognize a trans person's identity, whether real or fictional.

AlaricLives87
>>155525563

It’s only getting worse above, but as you can see, the more this conversation is drawn out with some people, the more they expose themselves for what this is truly about, and that ought to tell others who don’t wish to see it drag on why I keep it up. I do take it personally, and when you’ve been on the receiving end of it long enough, you tend to see it for what it is, and if others get to see such intolerance boil over as it has, then they can make up their minds and say, “hey, I don’t agree with that,” or they join them and while I never hope for the latter, it doesn’t surprise me that it’s the outcome.

Sworthy622
>>155707438

"You talk so much about people's "God given bodies", and yet you completely disregard their God given minds and souls. When God creates a trans person, who are you to argue, to say that He has made a mistake?" God's intent for each person's body and soul is pefect, but from the moment of conception, they're subject to the corruption of a fallen world. When a demon enters a person, to corrupt them, it can afflict body or mind. A good chunk of the Lord's ministry while on Earth dealt with the demonic, and exposed Satan's oppression of people both physically and mentally. A person can be born with an 'intersex' body. This body has been corrupted away from God's Will, because He states He created Mankind "male and female". In this case (assuming the person's soul is in good shape), then their gender could be determined from their mind.

Sworthy622
>>155707438

I initially came into the discussion in the Spirit of Truth and Goodwill. You rejected Truth and Goodwill, so now I communicate in the Spirit of Truth and Power. Yes, you will oppress and ostracize the saints, Satan. But what will you reap from it? God's judgement on you, that's what. You know the scriptures, you know what your end is, but you don't know the time. When you ostracize Christians from every walk of life, our hearts are turned in distress to the Lord, and our prayers become like those in Revelation 6:10. I ask the Lord for judgement, not a correction (like He has said is His plan through His prophet Brandon Biggs), because a correction would leave you free to wreak havoc on a future generation, like you've done this one. God's gracious, even to you. For all we know, judgement on this world could be at the far reaches of eternity. But with how you've been treating the saints recently, it may come a lot sooner. The Lord hears our prayers. Start treating us with some courtesy, some sympathy, and respect, or the Lord may answer us, and lay your world to waste.

AlaricLives87
>>155707438

Now you’re just typing tongues, which I wouldn’t be surprised if it involved you hitting all the keys with your tongue to stay on brand

ArtAnimationFan
>>155707438

Sworthy622, I respect your right to express yourself, but I should warn you from experience that this isn’t going to work out well. If we’ve tried having a civil discussion with them using only our viewpoints, and they’ve only insulted and lashed out in return, throwing religious beliefs in (which I have to by the way) won’t sway them. They don’t understand the difference between disagreements and what they consider “hate and intolerance”. I highly recommend just blocking them, and calling it a day.

Sworthy622
>>155707438

Yeah, I know it won't sway them. Probably one of the saddest sections in scripture is the end of Romans 1, which describes the kind of people I've experienced here (and elsewhere). Only part in scripture I'm aware of describing God having 'given up' a people. I continued in the way I did, not in the sense to 'win them over', but in the sense of there being a spiritual battle at play, which this discussion is a manifestation of. Ephesians 6:10-20

BluePaw
>>155621915

Counter point Argon, and a refresher for ya buddy of what I said under my own comment. "Natani was forced to live homeless with her brother after her parents and tribe were destroyed by human Templars. She eventually disguised herself as a male and, along with her brother, joined an assassins guild to make ends meet. Due to an accident during an assassination mission, Natani became magically and permanently linked to her brother, and much of her brother's male personality overpowered her own. Though she realizes her body is female, she has convinced herself she is really male." - Twokinds Character page for "Natani of the Border Forest Tribe", 2011. https://web.archive.org/web/20110319035341/http://twokinds.keenspot.com/?pageid=4 Clovis didn't willingly go through a sex change as it was punishment by Nora... so not trans as he doesn't have gender dysphoria, he doesn't like being sex changed, and has to hide that in secret from his other men--although now he's a tiny dragon by Reni once she broke free from him, so that might be rather moot at this point if he's trans or not--he never was--until he appears again . Nice try though...

Dan Vaelling
>>155707438

Let me repeat myself: you and your hate filled "preaching" is not welcome here.

Dan Vaelling
>>155517531

Gratz on the sketch! It's always nice to see Natani feeling comfortable.

AlaricLives87
>>155707438

For anyone who managed to read through all this and still considers themselves sane, it bares repeating: Natani is a Transmasc character whose correct pronouns are He/Him.

Went Brown

mmm sexy Kat

Ashen Imago
>>155508569

relatively sure Nat is bi at this point, but is in a gay relationship, yes.

ChairsForSatan
>>155707438

Does it sound better if trans people deviate from their assigned gender because a demon caused them to be born as one not intended by god? if you wanted all the characters to be cishet what the hell are you doing looking at furry art

KaiserDunk
>>155707438

Would it help if I just ignore you and quietly keep my own counsel?