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Angel: 3x17 Full Reaction (Patreon)

Published:
2025-04-02 14:30:03
Imported:
2026-06
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Content

"Forgiving"

Files

Previews only

Angel: 3x17 Full Reaction

Comments

ThePowerDrome

This is probably the most shocking moment in Angel. And it just so happens that you're pretty close to the most shocking (for me personally) moment in Buffy.

jenny from thebes

I think it's very in line with Angel's character that he can't forgive Wesley, not when the pain and grief is so fresh. I understand why Wesley did what he did and why Angel can both understand that and not forgive him. Losing a child is unbearable.

Lime Pie

You're absolutely right that this episode throws a spanner in what we think we know. Not only are the prophecies much less credible now that we know they can be faked, but we also have to wonder if Holtz is right about Angelus being a bigger part of Angel than we realized. I actually disagree with Lorne that Wesley did everything in his power to protect the baby (he could have told someone about what he found out for instance), but Angel did torture a human, almost got Fred and Gunn killed to get his revenge, and tried to kill Wesley. It's very understandable that Angel would want to take vengeance on everyone responsible for the loss of his son, but there is a difference between wanting and actually taking vengeance. These last few episodes have given us a lot to think about!

James Smith

A very fun double feature. I agree about Holtz' army being a bit of a drag for this episode. Considering that Holtz had some evil Giles' vibes in his introduction (middle aged British man that trains a young American woman to fight vampires, but he doesn't understand her pop culture references) the fact that his "army" is nothing like the Scoobies but just a bunch of nobodies that get beaten up over and over again in this double feature, feels like a bit of a let down.

Ahmad

Lilah and W&H wanted Connor alive - Sahjan wanted Connor dead. So when Sahjan opened the portal, Lilah told them to kill Connor because once Sahjan opened the portal he was the only one who could close it, the only other way to close it would be to go through it and Lilah didn't want Cortoth to pour into our universe, hence changing her mind about keeping Connor alive and going against W&H protocol.

DanielOrme

Re whether prophecies can be relied on, that's a slippery thing in the BuffyAngelverse. On the other hand, remember what the Hamburger God (LOVE the Hamburger God!) foretold to Wesley: "Your pain is just beginning. Betrayal and agony lie in wait." Very accurate there.

DanielOrme

Good ear on the accent of the truck driver. The actor (Sean Mahon) is Irish, trying to sound American.

JBK405

A lot of people when talking about Angel & Angelus seem to view it as Angel can ONLY do bad things if he turns into Angelus. Which completely overlooks all of the people in this series who do plenty of evil things while having a soul. Including Angel himself in season two. Having a soul means that Angel has the CAPACITY for good, and he has the capacity for forgiveness, and he has the capacity to feel guilt for his actions...but he also has the capacity for anger, and hatred, and resentment, and a desire for vengeance just as strongly as Holtz had. I can't think of any parent, in any circumstance, who could be sanguine about their child being kidnapped "for their own good". Especially if it the child wound up in a bad situation anyway. No matter how good the intentions were, that kind of thing would inspire eternal burning hatred in any parent I know. Holtz made a deal with a demon and traveled across time for his revenge. How is it any stranger that Angel would try to get his right away when face-to-face with Wesley?

Morgan Williams

I wasn't shocked by the ending of this episode, I'd be shocked if Angel didn't flip out on Wes...that was his son he lost, into one of the worst hells of existence so yea....

spikeysnack
>>169797473

The Loa or "lwa" are voodoo lesser gods of the African Gods they serve. They give prophecies to voodoo practitioners, often via animal sacrifice, and possession of the voodoo priest or priestess, or someone enraptured (and often drug-enhanced ..) at the ceremony. So it is cool that they put that in, it works both as comedy and as part of traditional tragedy where they try to get out of it and cannot no matter how much they think they have free will to choose. Sahjan works I guess as a mid-season lesser big bad. I hated seeing Wes attack Lorne like that -- desperation rears its ugly head in many ways, tho. Kind of a theme of the show. Makes you wonder if the Angel team is actually just a bunch of tragic figures, not the heroes they make themselves out to be. Also, I think everybody has a crush on Lilah. and Fred.

Antonio

This episode was originally aired about five weeks after Sleep Tight (Ep.16 was usually the time that shows took a mid-season break, otherwise called the Sweeps period) and I remember thinking that, yes, it was a bit of a cop-out that Wesley survived. I was glad that he did in terms of it being potentially more interesting for the show and his character's direction, but the problem with someone who keeps surviving these seemingly fatal murder attempts (also shot in S2 Ep14 and bled out for ages) is that it just becomes a little too unrealistic, even for a fantasy show. If you're not careful you start to enter Marvel territory, where 90% of the time there's little jeopardy in terms of character deaths because everyone's so strong and as a viewer it can become a little bit numbing and meh after a while. I guess it would've been semi-amusing, though, if Angel had managed to kill Wes with a pillow, rather than a knife or gun which obviously weren't enough.

madfem

Wesley didn't have to do things this way. I think it's in line with his character to make rash decisions on his own, god knows we've seen him do that before, but the reality is, he could have told anyone about the prophecy. So Angel not understanding why Wes did what he did makes perfect sense to me, and it's even ironic because Angel has the same flaw but probably doesn't even realize it, so he has no reason to be understanding towards Wes.

Arlo Murphy

I like how Wesley's deciding unilaterally how to proceed regarding the prophecy is consistent with his character from his very beginning in the Buffyverse, back when he thought he knew best how to deal with Faith when she killed the Deputy Mayor. He was wrong then, too. But this time he didn't have to make the decision alone: sure, don't tell Angel since the prophecy is about Angel, but he should have gone to Gunn and Fred with the prophecy. He didn't bring them in because he thought he knew better. Wesley's character has developed so much over the years, but it's nice to see that deep down his flaws remain the same.